butterfly dream

[camdorac_likom]

ONCE UPON A TIME, I Chuang Tzu, dreamt that I was a butterfly , flitting around and enjoying myself. I had no idea I was Chuang Tzu. Then suddenly, I woke up and was Chuang Tzu again. But I could not tell, had I been Chuang Tzu dreaming I was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming I was now Chuang Tzu.

Mình có nhiều câu hỏi về bài này muốn hỏi mọi người :
1. Why do you think he would want to relate the story of such a dream?
2. During the dream, what does he have" no idea" of ? Why might he have added this statement to the story of his dream?
3. What does Chuang Tzu wonder when he wakes from the dream? What does this tell you about his way of thinking?
4. What do you think the butterfly might symbolize?
Do you think it is an effective symbol?
5. What lesson, or moral do you gain form this story?

[Paddy]

ONCE UPON A TIME, I Chuang Tzu, dreamt that I was a butterfly , flitting around and enjoying myself. I had no idea I was Chuang Tzu. Then suddenly, I woke up and was Chuang Tzu again. But I could not tell, had I been Chuang Tzu dreaming I was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming I was now Chuang Tzu.

Mình có nhiều câu hỏi về bài này muốn hỏi mọi người :
1. Why do you think he would want to relate the story of such a dream?
2. During the dream, what does he have" no idea" of ? Why might he have added this statement to the story of his dream?
3. What does Chuang Tzu wonder when he wakes from the dream? What does this tell you about his way of thinking?
4. What do you think the butterfly might symbolize?
Do you think it is an effective symbol?
5. What lesson, or moral do you gain form this story?

5. What lesson, or moral do you gain form this story ?

Life is a dream.

[Quang]

Kỳ lạ.
Cái chuyện "Hồ Điệp mộng" đã rất khó hiểu với cả người Trung Quốc, hỏi bằng tiếng Việt đã ít người nói được, sao lại mất công ném sang phương tây rồi lôi về cho mệt
Đây là một đoạn trong "Nam Hoa kinh" của Trang Chu (Trang tử), một trong hai cuốn kinh khai sáng ra Đạo giáo Trung Hoa.

[Paddy]

ONCE UPON A TIME, I Chuang Tzu, dreamt that I was a butterfly , flitting around and enjoying myself. I had no idea I was Chuang Tzu. Then suddenly, I woke up and was Chuang Tzu again. But I could not tell, had I been Chuang Tzu dreaming I was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming I was now Chuang Tzu.

Mình có nhiều câu hỏi về bài này muốn hỏi mọi người :
1. Why do you think he would want to relate the story of such a dream?
2. During the dream, what does he have" no idea" of ? Why might he have added this statement to the story of his dream?
3. What does Chuang Tzu wonder when he wakes from the dream? What does this tell you about his way of thinking?
4. What do you think the butterfly might symbolize?
Do you think it is an effective symbol?
5. What lesson, or moral do you gain form this story?

1. Why do you think he would want to relate the story of such a dream? he wanted to use the dream as way to explain his philosophy about reality and non-reality.

2. During the dream, what does he have" no idea" of ? Why might he have added this statement to the story of his dream?
He had no idea that he was Chuang Tzu, in other words, he was not aware that he was human in his dream. If he was aware that he was human, it was just a dream (he dreaming as butterfly) and no more.

3. What does Chuang Tzu wonder when he wakes from the dream? What does this tell you about his way of thinking?
Because of this (#2 answer), when he woke up he could not tell which was real. He wondered if he was a butterfly dreaming as a man (when he was awake) ? or if he was a man dreaming as butterfly (when he was asleep). It means that reality is not what it seems (thực hư/hư thực). He could not tell what was real and what was not. This is the same setting in movie The Matrix.

4. I don't know. You have to read the book about this (Eastern philosophy).

5. Don't smoke too much opium !


Mr. Quang,
All BS/BA degree in USA and many other countries requires some courses in philosophy. Some of the courses are about Eastern Philosophy. I assume that Camdorac_likom is taking one of these courses. Is it not true, Camdorac_likom ?

[Quang]

Vậy thì bó tay rồi.
Làm mấy cái cử nhân đó mà bị học bằng ngôn ngữ này thì chắc nguy. Hồi trước VN đã bị một vụ làm về F. W. Nietzche tơi bời....
Đành "quay cóp" mấy cuốn của Trần Trọng Kim, Nhượng Tống, Nguyễn Duy Cần rồi dịch ngược ra English khi trả bài thôi.
Ông Nietzche với ông này giống nhau...

[camdorac_likom]

khi mình hỏi một đứa bạn rằng theo nó, ý nghĩa câu chuyện là gì? Nó nói : Chắc là ông muốn khuyên người ta Ở đời phải biết mình là ai; nên là theo mình thì " the butterfly" có thể tượng trưng cho một mặt trái của con người mà người ta không biết . Túm lại là với đầu óc đơn giản như tớ thì có lẽ không tìm ra được cái gì hay ở câu chuyện, mà cũng chẳng biết ý nghĩa sâu xa của nó là gì, hoặc là chuyện này không có gì hay, vậy mà đã từng có một lần, à năm ngoái, thầy Lý bọn tớ đã kể cho cả lớp nghe chuyện này, thầy kể xong, cả lớp hình như chả hiểu gì, thầy cũng chẳng nói gì thêm.

[Paddy]

khi mình hỏi một đứa bạn rằng theo nó, ý nghĩa câu chuyện là gì? Nó nói : Chắc là ông muốn khuyên người ta Ở đời phải biết mình là ai; nên là theo mình thì " the butterfly" có thể tượng trưng cho một mặt trái của con người mà người ta không biết . Túm lại là với đầu óc đơn giản như tớ thì có lẽ không tìm ra được cái gì hay ở câu chuyện, mà cũng chẳng biết ý nghĩa sâu xa của nó là gì, hoặc là chuyện này không có gì hay, vậy mà đã từng có một lần, à năm ngoái, thầy Lý bọn tớ đã kể cho cả lớp nghe chuyện này, thầy kể xong, cả lớp hình như chả hiểu gì, thầy cũng chẳng nói gì thêm.

Tớ học chuyện này trong lớp thuộc về triết lý, nhưng ông thầy dùng chuyện này để mở đầu về đề tài cái gì là thật. Lối bàn cãi của ông ấy giống như phim The Matrix, tất cả các giác quan không chính xác cho nên giữa mơ và tỉnh rất khó định nghĩa. Vì vậy mà ông ấy không đi sâu vào sự tượng trưng của com bướm.

[Quang]

Muốn hiểu thì phải đọc hết Nam Hoa kinh, chuyện tương tự chuyện này là chuyện hai người đứng xem cá. Cả phần trước của Nam Hoa kinh (Tiêu Dao du) chỉ toàn một ý tưởng tương đối hóa nhận thức như vậy.

[Mist]

ONCE UPON A TIME, I Chuang Tzu, dreamt that I was a butterfly , flitting around and enjoying myself. I had no idea I was Chuang Tzu. Then suddenly, I woke up and was Chuang Tzu again. But I could not tell, had I been Chuang Tzu dreaming I was a butterfly, or a butterfly dreaming I was now Chuang Tzu.

Mình có nhiều câu hỏi về bài này muốn hỏi mọi người :
1. Why do you think he would want to relate the story of such a dream?

2. During the dream, what does he have" no idea" of ? Why might he have added this statement to the story of his dream?

The mind is unable to distinguish between reality and dream. All of us are asleep and our reality arose from delusions.

Go and watch Matrix.

3. What does Chuang Tzu wonder when he wakes from the dream? What does this tell you about his way of thinking?

Chuang Tzu was able to see reality as it is and because of that he was able to see more and understand delusions. His presentation is to prompt us to think about our delusions and if it ignites a spark in us then we won't be so fixated by our mind created reality - which is false.

Chuang Tzu was wise because he could see more than us mortals.

4. What do you think the butterfly might symbolize?
Do you think it is an effective symbol?

He could have easily used a bird or a tiger or even a king but the writing won't be so beautiful as it is now. I believe there is no symbolism in it...it is mere poetry.

5. What lesson, or moral do you gain form this story?

Don't think too much .